The following interview is a continuation of four journal posts, which are a transcription of a conversation between Trade Winds Ensemble Artistic Director and Founder Midori Samson and Seungmi Cho, PhD candidate in social work at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
Part 1: Art vs. Science, Managing Pain, and Antiracism as Personal Liberation
Midori Samson: I have one more question: As a music lover, how would you want to see musicians using a social justice approach and a critical lens in our field?
Seungmi Cho: Well, it’s hard to answer. When I go to a performance, it’s something I enjoy!
M: I tend to forget that some people feel that way.
S: Yes! I go to a concert and I just enjoy it. It makes me feel good. It helps energize my mind. But the performances that stick with me are the ones where I see an orchestra and I can sense respect between the musicians, the conductor, and the audience. For example, when I see the musicians actually looking at the conductor, that indicates to me that there is trust and mutual respect. I guess when I get to see that with an orchestra that is inclusive of women, people of color, young people, and old people, I start to believe I’m part of a transcendent experience. That feels so powerful. When I was in South Korea, there was a Korean adoptee event that featured a professional orchestra made up of Korean adoptee artists. They performed “Arirang” a really important piece to Koreans. To see the diaspora working together to perform it for a Korean adoptee event was so emotional. The performance was definitely not perfect, but it was a way that I felt music could transcend the material reality where we have been divided and conquered. In that moment, I felt that we had an antiracist imagining of belonging together and being part of one voice again. When I think of a touchstone, that moment illustrates that for me. What are your antiracist imaginings for music?
M: I hate that we’re really stuck in tradition because I feel that is inherently white supremacy; this artform was built on white supremacy. That the way we talk about artistic excellence is also related to white supremacy because the standards we work toward are all to serve the tradition. I think an antiracist music world is one where perhaps we don’t play old music at all. Our instruments would also need to be different. We would have to redefine what is “good” and what is “bad.” All of this was built within the conditions of white supremacy.
S: It’s an interesting idea to contend with—that the nature of sound might change within a purely antiracist vision. I guess in the immediate material side of struggle, it might be an exercise in expanding voice. Because, right now, the traditional artistic expression obscures voices of people of color, for example. This might be an effort in the next 10 to 50 years to expand voice to be more inclusive and destabilize dominant voice.
M: I think that’s starting to happen; certain orchestras program people of color and women of color, but they’re so unique that everyone looks at them as an experiment.
S: I wonder what will change. Things will have to change.
M: I think the art form should die.
S: As someone who has dedicated their entire life to music thus far?
M: Yes, I think in a purely antiracist world, it should go away.
S: I was quoted in the New York Times saying, “our goal is to make ourselves extinct,” speaking of the Korean adoptee community. I think there is a similar sentiment. It’s because we have to uproot the root causes that lead to the conditions that result in overseas adoption, which marginalizes poor women of color.
M: Great, so we’re in this together. That’s kind of a sad thing to think…
S: There’s immediate sadness. When I talk to my friends who read the quote, they say that it’s hard to not feel sad. But what’s the alternative? The continuation of dominance.
M: My other thought is that maybe we should not be teaching instruments to children or that students should not enroll in music school—but I teach at a music school! I don’t know what the alternative is either.
S: You will live a long life of struggle, like me.
M: I think it’s worth it. (with a chuckle).
Interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
